SNP Episode 119 - Jonell Logan
Mission Driven w/ creative director Jonell Logan
Studio Noize is back with none other than the creative director of the McColl Center for Art + Innovation, Jonell Logan. Jonell is an amazing accomplished woman that exemplifies exactly the type of leadership we need in these arts organizations. She talks with your boy JBarber about her career in the arts leadership that includes the Whitney Museum of Art, Gibbes Museum of Art, the Harvey B. Gantt Center for African American History and Culture. Jonell gives us insight into what curators expect and want out of a studio visit, what she sees as her role in the arts ecosystem, and why she’s driven to do the work that she does. Listen, subscribe and share!
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JBarber: All right it's your boy JBarber tuning into StudioNoize you know, StudioNoize is a fam you know, I always tell y'all that. And we had our special guest, Mr. Juan Logan way back in a couple of episodes ago when we got to talking and of course I really highlighted how amazing his wife was. It was like, yo, why not bring her on the podcast too? Why not yo? So, welcome to StudioNoize Ms. Jonell Logan coming on the podcast, how are you doing
Jonell: I’m well, how are you?
JBarber: I'm good, it's so great to talk to you. You are an amazing accomplished woman as though, you know, we always appreciate that kind of stuff over here. Yo.
Jonell: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
JBarber: Yeah, for sure. And now, Miss Janell is the creative director at the McColl Center for Art and Innovation. She has worked for the Metropolitan Museum art Whitney, The Gibbs Museum of art Harvey Gantt center just an all-around executive director of league creative interventionalists. She just does it all. So, you know, why not bring her in and let her be amazing for the podcast?
Jonell: Well, thank you I'm really happy to be here. And excited for like where we end up in the conversation
JBarber: For sure. And so, in researching you and just looking you up and all this stuff like that, the idea of leadership came to my mind because I mean that's what you do. You go to these organizations; you are a creative director or executive director and like you're in charge. Like what, what gave you the idea to take this route in your career?
Jonell: It's kind of funny. I don't know. I never really thought that I would be in charge I'm sure that Juan would say differently. But that hasn't necessarily been my intention, I think I've been like super mission-driven about supporting artists and I guess what that looks like. So, I guess it makes sense that I would end up in these roles, but I've been really, you know, since being, I would say the Whitney kind of started this perspective, like what does it mean to work with contemporary artists, Artists who are working now what does it mean to kind of promote and, and create a space where you can challenge ideas? Sometimes those ideas are hard for us to process; and so how do we build the space to do that? And then also, how do we in these systems that exist in the art world, how do we make sure that there are diverse voices at the table on the walls being you know, supported through like collecting, you know, how do you do that? And so that's really been what has led my kind of career and practice. And then I think ultimately kind of pushed me into these positions
JBarber: Part of one of your bios on one of the sites said it was a quote on it and say you were invested in servant leadership. Tell me about that a little bit.
Jonell: So, for servant leadership, I mean, for me, right, the idea is there are two perspectives in leadership, there's that top-down model where like, you're the boss and you like are the queen of all you survey, and so your decisions are really made kind of from that perspective and that position. And, and then for servant leadership, you know, I think it's more about like transformation and working collaboratively and really thinking about if this is our goal, how do we all get there? Right. How do we like to pool our resources and really think about our skillsets so that we're like leading together and making a change? So, I always kind of think about my role as less leader, more facilitator, and bringing folks to the table.
So, even when I think about like how I curate you know, there are lots of conversations with the artists who will be on view or showing their work or sharing their work so that it's I think kind of an authentic space and we can really kind of generate and get the ideas around the work, like out in a way that I think is truer and it brings fulfillment to everyone who's involved in the process now. And, you know, sometimes we have moments where you have to make an executive decision but we all kind of go on that journey together.
JBarber: And so, for you, what part came first? Was it the curation or the directing? Like how did you end up in, I mean, how do you balance those two roles?
Jonell: It's interesting. I actually started in education, and museum education in particular because that's, I think the place where people primarily, like when we think about access, right? So, how are people coming? How are people engaging? What are they walking away with? How do we make the space comfortable? How do we translate the kind of the exhibitions or the work so that people can kind of come and have their own conversations and build their own relationship? So, I actually started in museum education and then having, I think trained as an art historian of practicing artists you know, an undergrad, I studied anthropology. I think all of that kind of came together to really start to think about if we're, you know, we're creating access to these stories through work, what are the stories that we're telling? And how do we tell a broader kind of story or build bigger narratives so that more people can not only the stories but can connect. And so, it was kind of this evolution from education to curating, to leading. And I still do a lot, like I see all of those things are related. So, I still do a lot of those things in my work. But I think that that's kind of the path that I took.
JBarber: When you enter these institutions like you know, all the places that I've talked about and more that you've worked for that's not been mentioned yet. When you enter those spaces, what do you see your role being, especially as, and I'm asking this specifically because you are, I consider you and people in your position to be the conduit between what I call the streets right. It's just regular artists that are out working trying to, you know, trying to do their thing and these organizations, which, which sort of control the trajectory of your career. Do you know, does that make sense?
Jonell: Are they very much control or can't control the trajectory of your career? Absolutely. So, what is my role in that? I think if I'm doing it right, there were a couple of things that I'm doing. You know, I'm opening space with a full understanding of what artists careers are kind of informed by, I'm opening space for that career development to happen, whether it's through, you know, having an exhibition, whether it's, you know, like having other curators come in, the, they can get feedback and connections through their work or to their work with other people. Is it about asking sometimes tough questions of artists, like artists' statements? Like, what are you, what are you writing? What are you saying? Like, for real, sometimes I'm just like, let's talk about this, right? So, like, you know, what are you presenting and what are you actually saying?
And does that even connect your work? But I think, you know, in all of those spaces, my responsibility is to facilitate space for all of those things. And to build relationships because, you know, like the reality is these cultural spaces often feel distant and separate to people. So how do you build, like, build a space where people can forge their own relationships so that, they don't feel put off so that people who traditionally either have not been seen as collectors or have always been seen as collectors can come and support these artists. Cause like the dollar's a real thing. Right? So, like how do you make these spaces and, and build these programs so that you can connect with artists and audiences and connect them. I don't need to be a part of all those conversations, but can we make space for those conversations to happen?
JBarber: And are those conversations already happening? Like when you go into like a place like the Whitney, like what is, what is the environment in the, in the mind state of the other people that are like in those positions or who do you feel like you're a radically different bringing like a completely different perspective to it?
Jonell: I don't know that I'm bringing a completely different perspective to it. And I think it depends on the organization and the institution, right? Because some spaces are purely dedicated to showing work. So, museums generally their mission is to collect and show work. Right? They don't sell you know; they have programs that allow people to kind of connect to and interpret the work, but they're showing and collecting organization. A space like where I am now, McColl center, we are an artist in residence program so, it's super hands-on yes, we show. But our kind of goal and intention is to create a space or where artists can work and experiment. And for like three or four months, you know, they're supported through studio space and a place to live and, an honorarium, but ours is like a working experimental connecting environment.
We don't collect so, there isn't that I think we can take more risks and there isn't, this needs to kind of validate the purchase of work because honestly, that's happening in those museum spaces. So, I think my position or, or what these organizations do and their perspectives are, are fundamentally guided by their institutional kind of category and mission. I think the thing that is a little bit that might make me a little bit different. But there are a lot of, I think folks in the field that feel the same way is that we need to make these spaces accessible and for people who have traditionally been excluded, right. So, you could be, you know, and, and speaking, frankly, like if we can look at race, like black artists have been traditionally kind of left out of the market or relegated into these small spaces in the Mart market given fewer opportunities and, and like various programs. And so, you know, I think about constantly, like who is not, who is not here and how do we get them here.
JBarber: Yeah. And I think that's what I, I don't want to speak for myself. And the people that had that kind of thing like me, but that's always the question that I have when you look at institutions, right. And it's an amount of skepticism, especially based on, what's supposed to be this black Renaissance scene, you know of you know, uplifting black artists into like these spaces and incorrect and correct in the history and the cannon and all that kind of stuff. Then, to imagine myself always skeptical to see how genuine that is. Does that make sense?
Jonell: It does make sense, right? Because there have been moments, I mean, throughout history where, you know, being inclusive, bringing people in has always come with kind of strings attached or caveats, or the idea that there can be only one or a select few. And I think that that, you know, that's, that has been kind of imposed on people who are without power and this kind of a singular cultural perspective forever. Right. So, I think there is rightfully so this level of skepticism that, that people have which is why it's, I think it's super important to build trust and, and function from this authentic space because people, you know, people know and people are sensitive enough to be like, oh, so like you only talk to a certain group of people during their like, representative month. Right. So, this is like, you know, and, and then every other time during the year, like, we don't hear from you it's crickets, right. You don't reach out and, and that is a part of it, right. So, if we're talking about like cultural shifts, then it needs to happen across the board and you need to put yourself out there and you need to build these kinds of long-term relationships and you need to listen. And so, I think Oregon is like cultural organizations if they're really about that work or learning that and applying that and, you know, hopefully, there will be broader systems change. I'm hopeful. Yeah.
JBarber: Yeah. Well, you know, we're always hopeful. And then it's a matter of how oftentimes accountability can be a full-time job. Do you know what I mean? Like it takes a certain group too. I just heard a number recently that out of the last year with the Georgia, Florida, and all this, you know, Black Lives Matter stuff, as people pledge like $50 billion to black organizations. And so far only like $120 million of it has went out the door. So, it’s that kind of thing where like, yes, you know, we appreciate a Goodwill. We, you know, like, you know, put your little post up and your little statements. But the actual investment is what we need to see. And I think that that would lead to a remarkable change because I think there's a lot of artists out there that are doing the work and doing it at a high enough level that it doesn't bring down an institution to bring them in at all. And so, so what the really, the only caveat would be that race in, in, in my opinion,
Jonell: You know, it does. And it's interesting because I think that there are so many things that kind of contribute to that and like, or happened. So, you know, they're having, I have my MFA. So, like having gone through a very Western formal education in terms of like art and practice, I think that there, that, you know, race is definitely an issue. I think that also though like how we're taught in art school is, is, is an issue. And it, I think it's, it's a very kind of economic perspective, right? So, you don't like, you learn how to create things, but you don't learn how to do business. Right, right. So, those people, those artists who have connections, they know dealers, they know these art spaces, they know collectors or have social capital enough to engage with people already. They've done the networking, right. They automatically have a leg up versus someone who does not have that, that kind of connection or relationship.
And they're incredibly talented, but they don't know the business of art and it is so much a business. Right. And so, I think those divisions kind of lead to really talented people who often who do not have those relationships, which can often kind of be broken down economically. And then on top of that ratio, right. That they don't have the opportunities, they don't succeed, they don't get the shows. Right. They don't get collected. They're not able to make you know, a living off of their practice. And instead, they're like, like a lot of artists working and they start to diminish their artistic practice thinking of it now as a hobby, not as a way, not as their profession or like their path, you know, their career. That's
JBarber: True. Yeah. Because it's I spoke about this on a couple of episodes ago, but art is also being an artist as an emotional investment in a lot of times. And it's very hard to constantly be emotionally stable, like in, especially in an environment when you put so much work in and so much other stuff in it. And it's always, there's one other thing that you should have done. And it has nothing to do with the art you made or your talent, or like how much time and effort you put into creating. It is like the other stuff that you talk about. And that can be completely frustrating, especially for somebody to operate on an emotional level in terms of how to engage their work. So, actually how that could lead to a lot of, a lot of difficulties, a lot of difficulties as well.
I mean, I think that's why I love having conversations with people that are in your position, right. Where you can give like a different perspective to this kind of thing. Especially to like my audience, my audience is, is in terms of a lot of emerging artists, I would think coming up, so, you know, it's good for them to hear this kind of stuff and get them to think there's a whole practice that you have to build around your work, not just make good work and, you know, putting on Instagram like it's a whole other level that you have to do maneuver yourself into these spaces.
Jonell: Right. And even if you are putting it on Instagram, like, are you taking really good, like images of your work? Like people can actually see it. And what are you saying about your work? You know, when it's up there, like, I think those are, you know, some of the things that like you really have to think about. But we often aren't prompted to think about
JBarber: Absolutely. Yeah. That's all, I'm going to turn the conversation a little bit and talk about your role as a creative director. Like what, what exactly do you do as a creative director?
Jonell: Oh, I do like anything. No, it feels like everything in this moment. No, but really, I think it is the creative director. My role or responsibility is to really think about our organization's mission and vision and translate that and in the most kind of creative way possible, right. In a way that supports artists, because artists are the center of our program and what we do. But then also talking about like engagement. So how are we like functioning as a space where artists aren't just coming or creating a void, but they're connecting. They're connecting with the broader Charlotte community, which is why they come to Charlotte. And beyond, I mean, we're a national international residency program.
And so, like thinking about those longer terms, broader connections, and commitments to artists, because once you're a part of the program, you are a part of McColl. How do we support you beyond the time that you're here? And so, you know, I work with amazing people, and I constantly kind of challenge us all to think, okay. So, you know, how do we build we're in this unique building, right? With these unique artists, we are a contemporary space, so inherently we should take risks. You know, how do we do that? In a way that is true to who we are, it supports what we're about, and then also ultimately leads to a kind of transformation. So that's kind of what I, that's what I see myself doing, but I imagined that I'm doing at least.
JBarber: That's awesome. You know, and anybody who's listening, they can go to McColl center.org and check out the residency program. Tell us a little bit more about the residency program. Like, and specifically what in who, what type of artists who would you be looking for to be a part of that? Like, isn't the specific criteria.
Jonell: Okay. So generally speaking, artists who are practicing so we ask that you not be in school and that you not be someone who just wants to do art kind of casually or as a hobby, because we're really hoping to support your careers. So contemporary, practicing artists we say emerging, but we've had a range and we have various opportunities, right? So, we've had a range of artists who are like truly kind of getting into like their practice, like some who had just received their MFA all the way up to, you know, artists who are, have been established for a moment, but are kind of looking at doing new work. We ask that you have a body of work, so you can show what you're about and what you do and can talk about your work. Because what we do is to build cohorts, we generally have four artists at a time in our residency in each residency is about three months.
And so, what we're looking at is not only how well you create we're looking at your ideas and then also, how do we build this best kind of group at one time in order to really support all of your growth in these exchanges of ideas and an opportunity to play and play is I think incredibly important. I always think of play in terms of like education and process, right? And like moving ourselves forward without the stress of it being perfect. We generally, you can pretty much make anything that you want here. We have a lot of resources, so we have a printmaking space, a lab with various prints. You know you can do, we can't do with atrophy anymore, but like etching screen printing, you know, linocuts et cetera. We have a media lab for those who want to do digital work and print large scale.
We have sculpture space complete with a woodshop and welding equipment. There's a ceramics lab downstairs where you can fire things and also build some things. And we generally just kind of have equipment for folks to really kind of try things in play. We have performance artists. We've looked for people who want to collaborate, but it's really for artists who want to make arts their career who want to be in a space where they can experiment and try new things and are open to that. Cause like some artists just want to like, I paint trees and I'm going to come there and paint trees. We might not be a good match because we really want you to like, think about what these trees are. And maybe you're like building trees by the time you leave. But it's really a space for experimentation for artists who want to like connect with other artists.
And, and who I think also feel that they can function kind of on their own. Right? Sometimes artists are in a space where they really, they're kind of frozen and we're not, we're not saying that my, you know, creative block is a challenge, but you really are in a lot of ways encouraged to, to work at your own pace. And you're kind of left to your devices. We will pop up, we'll look at what you're doing, but we hope that you're driven. Self-Driven in a way that allows you to take full advantage of all the things that are here and on the table.
JBarber: That's awesome, man. Yes. And for people that don't know, this is located in Charlotte, it's a, it's a reformed Presbyterian church. It's a beautiful building. I think I've visited there once a few years ago. It's a very, very, very beautiful place. And that, I love the idea of experimentation as the emphasis. Right. And cause most often people want you to do what they know you can do. Like, you know, give me more of that stuff. Like, you know, those, you know, those circles that you did at that time, I do some more of those for me. But I liked that idea of innovation.
Jonell: Yeah. It's important. I mean, that's the way that we kind of progress. Right. And oftentimes you're right. Like people see your work, they see a particular body of work it's successful. They want more of those things. You know, we want you to do more of those things if, if that's where you are, but like how do you continue to grow as an artist? Even if you don't show the new work to anybody ever in life, right? You still have that opportunity to create and to push yourself and to feed your kind of your spirit. And to try new things because, you know, as, as many folks know like you make something and you think is done, you're not exactly sure what to do with it. You don't know how it's going to manifest later on. And then who knows like a week, a month, a year, 10 years later, you're like, oh, and then the problem you're presented with a new problem, you remember that work, solve that problem. And then you're on to this whole other thing. Right. And so that's the space that we want to make for artists.
JBarber: Well, well, you only have been there for a short time. So, I was going to actually like what w what w what was a dramatic change that you've seen, but, but you haven't been in that role for as long
Jonell: Well, but what's interesting is I came in and, and I was interested in the position because they were in a space of change and I, and I think that's the thing, right. I love organizations that are solving problems and in a moment of transformation. And so, you know, the organization itself is like I mean, I think we're 20 years old, maybe a little bit more they've had a very kind of traditional in some ways a residency model. And right before COVID, the organization did kind of some soul searching and came up with a new strategic plan and then committed to executing the strategic plan even during COVID. And then, you know, I came on and what we're doing, which I think is really interesting, oftentimes for residency programs, it's about the artists who are away and come in, and then they leave again. And one of the things that are a challenge for Charlotte is really thinking about how we support local artists, right? The artists who were here. And I mean, you hear this in all cities. It's like, you gotta like show somewhere else. Yeah.
JBarber: Yeah. That's the Atlanta motto. Soon as you come in first, they would say
Jonell: Like, it's like recognizing that. And so, what we have done, and since I've come on, we revamped and this started before I came, but revamp the residency program so that there are fewer residents. So, we have four, I think there used to be six or seven, one point. We took the studios because the studios are really big artists also get a really great big space. We took those larger studios and made them smaller so that local artists could rent out smaller studios or those studio spaces. And then they have access to the same equipment that the artists and residents have. Right. So as a printmaker trained as a printmaker, it's super hard to like, be a printmaker if you don't have access to a press. And if you don't have enough space for press, and if you don't like, how do you like learn new techniques and like printmaking, right?
How do you keep current? And so, this kind of model allows for artists who might not have large enough space. And I think Charlotte, like Atlanta, like a lot of spaces that work for artists, have now become residential, like townhomes and things like that. Right. So, like, spaces are like hard to get, and then there's smaller. You can't really like afford to buy like a $5,000 press, right? What you're able to then kind of work in these space exchange ideas with artists who come from all over the place and then use this equipment. Right. So, it, it's, it's changing the model it's, but at the same time, it's fostering our mission in a, in a broader way. So that's kind of, that's why I came. And what I've been working on with my colleagues since arriving, and it's super exciting. Like we just, what is it two weeks ago, maybe just got our first cohort of studio renting artists in. So, there are eight artists who are here now who live in Charlotte totally different backgrounds in terms of who they are, what they make, how they approach their work. And they're like building this community with these other artists who are, have come in from around the country. So, it's exciting.
JBarber: Yeah. That's awesome. You know, I'm, I'm from North Carolina. So, the reason, one of the reasons I moved to Atlanta was because I didn't see that kind of community around. And so, it is not a desirable place was not a desirable place for me to be entering it because that's what I was looking for. I was looking for more of us and something to like, hold on to that makes sense. And so, I ended up like that. That's why I ended up leaving North Carolina because I didn't see it as a viable art-making place. Like, you know what I'm saying? If I'm like, now here I can make a living off doing shows all over Atlanta. I didn't see the same opportunities in North Carolina. So that's pretty exciting that you would have that space available for people that are around Charlotte.
Jonell: And it's just like, you know, w you, you talked about this, right. It, there are, there are artists who are incredibly talented who are in our communities that like we don't know about, they might not know about us. There might not be, they might not have the support that they need in order to kind of take that next step. So, you know, it's our responsibility to create those spaces to make that happen.
JBarber: Absolutely. I'm super glad, super glad that there's an organization there that is looking to take on that mission because that, that is a particular kind of thing of searching out people to invest in, in your community and they're there. And it is a matter of disseminating the information to the people. And so how do you do that? How are y'all connected to the universities around, or
Jonell: We are, so we have relationships with the universities community colleges, right? Cause like everybody is like, again, talent knows no single place. And we're trying to move away from some of those like traditional hierarchical trappings, and get people caught up. We work, we have a group of high school students who are working with us this summer, who come from all over the Charlotte area, in different schools. Some of them are artists, but all of them are interested in like, what are creative careers? So, they're here. We have relationships with community-based organizations. We are intentionally building partnerships with other arts organizations or creative-based organizations that support artists and we're strategically also collaborating with funders who really want their dollars to go to supporting work like this. So, two of our local studio renters have their rent covered by funders in order to make sure that, you know, we're being equitable. Cause that's a real thing. Like, you know, artists who have studios are generally people who have disposable income who can afford these spaces. So how do we make sure that though, you know, again, incredibly talented, incredibly brilliant, incredibly driven people who might not have the extra money to, have a space? How do we ensure that they're here too?
JBarber: Yeah, that's wonderful. That's really amazing. That's exciting to hear you. I definitely want to come up and stop by and check it out again. Yeah. I haven't been, it's been a few years since I've been, especially since COVID, I haven't been like around coming out, switching again to like, it's just your idea of curation and thinking about the ways that you engage in artists in that practice. What, what catches your attention that you see from artists? Like, is there anyone thing that stands out or do you look at the body of work and well, I'll let you explain it is what, what are you, what do you, what catches your attention?
Jonell: So, and I know that people feel differently about this, but I think good work, strongly visual, intentional work is the first thing that I see and notice. I think that it is and that you have a voice, right? All of us have learned to like paint landscapes. So, you have the happy little tree and a happy little mountain and the happy little book in the foreground. Right. And that's all great. But that's not your voice. I'm really interested in artists who have, are making a statement or, or, or, you know, that, that work is associated with them. Right. That there's a clear conversation. I might not always get it, but like there is like real, I mean, there's work that I hang and have an artist that I've worked with where I may not have loved the work personally, but, you know, it's, it's technically really well executed.
They're making these really important or they're making statements in their work because of that foster like thought or conversation or, you know, work that is just beautiful. I think we discount beauty entirely too much. Right. So, work that is beautiful. And, and, and often when I'm working on a project, I think it depends on, the theme of the project. Right. So, what are we investigating and how do we have as many voices as possible to have a full conversation around that issue? Those are things that for me kind of start the process. Having enough work is super important. Like, I cannot, cannot say enough if you only have 10 pieces to show someone that's a problem. Right. Right. Cause like, you're not, you're not doing the work. Like you're, you're not. And I get that. There are different reasons why, but like, if you're going to have a show, 10 pieces is nothing.
Right. And do you like, do you have the time to create a whole other body of work? Oftentimes curators want to look and see what's going to be included before they just kind of sign off. Like there's a level of trust to be like, okay, actually, you know, I haven't seen these 20 paintings that you're going to include, but you know, we got you, right. That's a whole different thing, but like, where is your practice, right? Where is your work is something that's important? And for me, you have to be able to talk about your work. Like you got to write because that isn't for me. When it provides context and it just kind of clarifies where you're coming from. So, you know, all these big, old esoteric statements, you can be wordy as you need to be. But is there content that for me is, is really important?
I love taking, talking with, and working with artists of all kinds of like spaces in their careers. So, you know, often people feel that, oh, I haven't had enough exhibitions, so no one will ever consider me for a show. I don't want to function that way. I think if you're if the work is strong if there is, you know, we're able, we're building this dynamic kind of conversation or present like presentation, visual narrative with the work, whether you've been in this game for 20 years or for 20 minutes, I think it's all fair game. And so that when I think about putting together shows, those are things that are important to me. And where are you finding these artists? So sometimes it's from friends and, and curators who know folks work. I go to look at work a lot and I think artists have to do this too. I look at work a lot. And so like, I'll note somebody like, Ooh, that was interesting. I also talked to artists that I trust. So, and know that they are really intentional about who they work with or like who's out there. Like I know that they're looking. And so, you know, I've called in artists and been like, hey, you know, I'm working on this show, these are the ideas who, who are you.
Because I think that's important, right? That, that you're this peer-to-peer connection I think is important. And, and it's part of a vetting process too. Right? So, so those are some of the places where I find artists, I always encourage people to reach out to. Because again, I think one, you need to be an advocate for your work and to you, can't be everywhere and see everything. Right. And so, you know, if I'm always encouraging artists, you know, reach out, we can talk. If it works now, great, there've been artists that I've wanted to work with for like four years and then suddenly had an opportunity to do that. And so that's kind of that that really is a lot of the way that our work
JBarber: And how do those conversations usually go, like when people reach out to you what are they saying? Just like, Hey I need to be in the show.
Jonell: Often, like, you know, people want to have to start with, like, this is who I am. This is what my work is about. You know you can we set up a time for you to like, do a studio visit or to see my work or whatever. Right. Because I think that's important. The work has to speak for itself because you can talk a great game, but if you can't translate,
JBarber: I'm sure you've seen that a lot. Like people that yap, yap, yap, yap. Yeah. Like
Jonell: Right. You know, and I think part of that is like the process, right. Because somewhere along the line, your ability to talk versus your ability to create like there are these moments where it was supported a sign-on that's okay. But like, you know, can, you know, I'd love to show you some of the work. I love to look at work and I love to talk to artists about what they're doing, you know? And so, I think that is a space often when I have some like initial conversations with artists, I often ask about like, you know, what are you doing? What, what are your goals? Like, do you just, and that sometimes is a hard question for artists, you know? And I'm like, there's a difference between this moment, I want to be in a space where like I can experiment, right. So, I can refer like encourage you to look at residencies or we can unpack residency zone, you know, what are some of the great things about them? Or what are some of the challenges, or, you know, if it's about, I've been in these residencies, I've been showing at these spaces, you know, what are other opportunities? Or where should I look? We can have those conversations. I don't want to engage in transactional conversations where it's like, okay, here's my work. Are you gonna show me? Like, that's not...
I mean, sometimes it's a simple, yes. Like that's a yes or no, right? That's like, that's it, like, that's a, that's a boundary. But how do we have a fuller conversation so that you walk away with something? I walk away with something we've learned from each other. We've been able to exchange these ideas and build a relationship. Right? Because I think a lot of the way that our work is in terms of relationships transactions are fine. And sometimes the world has to be that way. But you know, if this is about a broader career, if this is about cause this, and it's a small art world, right. If we're going to run into each other, like in these different spaces, then we should have a positive, like, we should have some level of relationship because I'll tell you what, you know, I don't know how many times I might be working on something. It might not be a great fit. I have a for, you know, someone, a colleague calling me like, hey, I'm working on this, do you know of anybody? Or I'm working on this, I'm considering this artist, you know, do you know of him? And what do you, what do you think? Like that's beyond just like the transaction of yes or no. Yeah.
JBarber: Yeah. I imagine all y'all curators on like a one big zoom call, like this giving like notes to each other about who's good. And who's not yeah. As long as we're yellow. So, tell me when one of the best studio visits that you've ever had and one of the worst, just for fun.
Jonell: Okay. But one of the best okay. I have on one of the best ones was with an artist. And what made it great was she was so excited by her own work. Right? Like she was just like, oh my God, you have to see this. Like, you know, I was working on this, I saw this, I'm curious about this. Like you know, she was just inspired by her work and that's contagious. And she could really kind of talk about like references and what she was looking at. It, she had questions, there were still problems that she was working through kind of in her process and in the work. And so that was like super exciting. It was really dynamic. It was kind of great to see where like you could see the questioning and you could see like, okay, this is a moment of like evolution.
And while, you know, this work is stronger, this work right here, isn't resolved, you could see that it would be in the future. Right. So, it was like this kind of full kind of encompassing experience. I think one of the worst studios visits it was with an artist who didn't have a lot of work at all and was kind of stuck, had been told that the work was great for so long that they couldn't get past it. And couldn't like receive feedback. Couldn't hear things. Couldn't even like, hear the question of like, so what artists, you know, who do you look at? What are some of the artists who are some of the artists that inspire you? You know, they just couldn't receive that. And it's just like, nah, it's just me and my, like, it's just me. I'm like, okay. Right, right. And, and, and it makes for a difficult and awkward situation because you're not sure one, you're not really sure why you're there other than maybe to validate somebody. And if you don't necessarily feel that you can validate them in the way they expect you to write it, doesn't make, it's like, oh
JBarber: No. Oh, you want me to tell you is good. Right. Yeah. But it's
Jonell: So, then it just becomes like a series of questions that attend the AF like I'll start asking. Right. but I think that's hard because in that situation what was kind of, what was frustrating is that it wasn't, it was kind of a waste of time because you didn't want to hear anything other than a fabulous, you didn't want to, there was no kind of curiosity at all. And then like the work, like there wasn't even enough to like, make almost like a full sentence. Right. So, like, you may have gotten like halfway through and there's like, and then it just trails off. There's no punctuation, there's no conclusion. And, and, and that makes it, that that's tough as really hard.
JBarber: Oh man. I can imagine. I can imagine I've had those conversation with him, but you know, artists, artists is very different is I think when curators come into your space, you, you feel a sense of authority. Like, ah, this person is, you know, officially looking at me on a, in a different way than like a peer to peer, like artists, artists, I'm in your studio. People might respect my opinion, but it doesn't hold the same weight. And so, I don't know, I tried to encourage people. And you pointed out two things like in your examples that are always try to, to point out about people as one. What are you excited about? And like, let's, let's do more of that stuff. Like, even if it's, if you don't feel like it's as good as good quote, unquote as what you have done before you know, you've got to follow the creative energy, you got to follow the juice, like, you know, just float the river, like wherever it's going to take, you we'll be in the end a better place than just you like pointing it out for yourself and falling in that version of it.
And two your second example is to stay engaged with it. Don't, don't read your own press clippings, like, like, you know, like really always consider yourself to be emerging and working and to stay engaged with it. You know, people, people do have that problem. Maybe I had that problem and they get it from comparing themselves to other people, you know what I'm saying? And, and all of that type of stuff. Do you ever run across people and, and you feel like their work is too similar to another artist?
Jonell: Yes, absolutely. And I think it is part of that is a problem with the market and a challenge of education. Right. Because when you like an art school, wherever it is, right, like you're taught to look at somebody and copy, right. And then like, how well you did you get like the chick or the AE or you get to show it. Right. So, everyone has done like a Van Gogh inspired, right. Every kid has done it. Right. and then you get to grad school, if you go that far, and then it's like, okay, forget all that. Now you gotta find your own voice. And that's super hard when you are taught to, to like replicate somebody's process up until that point. And then it depends on like, who is teaching you or what you, you know, what your practice is, if you, if you, it's kind of like someone who learns to play piano by ear and can't read music right.
Then while you're incredibly talented and you can do this thing, there's a, there's a space that's missing, right. That, that could push you further. And so, it's, it's a challenge. And I think in terms of the market, depending regionally, where you are, there are certain things that fell, right. So, you know, again, dollars are real and we need them to live. And so like, you, like, it's easy to like make work that, you know, will sell sometimes and work. That is, I think, more that's a chance or a risk, right. Where there isn't a, an a pre-made market for it. And so sometimes, you know, you get stuck in those spaces where you're doing like images of Tupac, right. Or like painting, you know, and, and no offense and none of it. Right. Cause it all is important.
But like if you're a 20-year-old copying Aaron Douglas, like that happens. But like the relationship that you have with that style is very different from what Aaron Douglas had in that moment. Right. So how do we be inspired? Because again, I think looking at artists' work is important because they've often saw problems. Right. Or like, understand this color, like relationships. And you're just like, oh my God, like, that's the thing, like, that's, that's it like, that's what I've been trying to figure out, but you're still able to create work that is uniquely yours. Yeah. I think that was important.
JBarber: Yeah. I completely agree with that. I think for me, especially going into grad school I was a working artist but being in is like two completely different ways of looking at artwork by being out in the market, trying to sell into galleries, like, you know, face to face with people having these connections almost like hand to hand, almost like hand to hand with collectors and stuff, and then getting into an academic space where everything has to be worded and justified and researched in a different way. It, it gave me interesting perspectives. And I, I tried to find my medium in between, you know, you know, who's to say how good I was, I finding a balance, but I tried because it, because it is a thing where, like I said, like there was money that was being made by me. And I didn't want to not make that money, but I didn't want to, to embrace this new reality, like this new world of, you know, finding this research and all these different people and all these names and journals and all this other stuff that can to be creatively free is difficult. Like, is it, you know, when you come from certain backgrounds? Absolutely. What was the last show that you curated?
Jonell: So, there's a show that's currently up at McColl and it's a show of our current artists and residents. And there are, who's in it. Like, I know everybody's name is C-sharp Z as one of our artists and Lauren Hill Edison then USCO and Jackie Milad. And so, it's a show kind of introducing them to the community it's called conflict point. And what's, I think, oh, and Barbara Shriver who is actually local, which again is super exciting because we have that exchange happening with the artists. And so, it, it's just really, it's kind of an interesting show Edison, there there's a lot performance work that, that appears via video in the show. And for a lot of the artists not only do performance, but they do photography. They, they create like mixed media work that then is translated into this other kind of process and meat and, and medium.
So, it's a really, I think it's a fun show. It was, it was hard to install in some ways, but it's really, we're having a good time with it. And we're actually sharing that tonight, tonight is like the formal open house so that people can come see the exhibition and meet all of the artists in the building. And then I think the one before that was in Florida and I actually had a number of, of Atlanta based artists. So Sheniqua gay was in isn't it, I know she's fabulous. I love her. Like, so there were a lot of artists from Atlanta who Mel Melissa Alexander was so magical artists that there they are not playing any games. And I love it. Yeah.
JBarber: They've been on the podcast too. Like we all know each other. Yeah. We all one big circle. I think it's weird how you gravitate to people. Especially like when you're engaged in that creative work, in that way, like you just gravitate to people that are also trying to do it. You know what I'm saying? I don't know if they would say the same thing for me, but I was gravitated to deal for sure. That's awesome. You as awesome. You got anything coming up in the future, like extra special or just working at McColl?
Jonell: It's, it's extra special working at McColl though. Cause I get to spend like all day with artists. So, like earlier today I was like, I'm going to bop down and look, it's the studio, what are you doing? Right. So that's great. I think right now because I've only been here for a minute and we're doing a lot of kind of change and growth and, and really trying to think about, you know, how we truly serve these artists. I will be focusing on that. I, you know, we'll have another exhibition in a few months and I'll work on that and we're, we're looking at doing some more collaborations and we're really interested in like connecting with organizations and artists who are in our region. And that includes down to Atlanta because there's this like super interesting like highway of artists, right?
There's this exchange between Charlotte and Atlanta and actually one of our next residents is from Atlanta or the Atlanta area, Ken west, who's a photographer. Yeah. He's going to be here in the fall. So, we're looking at like those relationships. And so, I'll really be kind of focused on cultivating those relationships and like building revamp our new program or not building it, but like helping to like develop these new processes and ways of working with artists. I mean, this is the first time for a long time and especially post COVID, like we had people in that building, you know, we're all like learning, like how to like talk to each other again, not on zoom and like, what does it mean to have people in the building? And so, I'll really be looking at developing and supporting and collaborating around, you know, the program here.
JBarber: That's awesome. And so, you invited people to reach out to you, so how can they reach out to you?
Jonell: So, what's easiest. So, you know, I have like the little social media situation. It's my name. So, I can remember, I try to keep things simple. So Jonell, @jonell_logan is my Instagram name. I'm also on Facebook with my name and then for here at the McColl, my email address is JLogan@McCollcenter.org.
JBarber: I suppose I'll be, tell him that you heard her own studio noise and let her know where he got it from and, and use your proper DM etiquette please. Don't harass my girl please.
Jonell: Look, because I'm looking at them funny and then I'm gonna call and be like, listen, I'm gonna need you to get those together.
JBarber: Yeah, Hopefully it's all good things and great shows coming up. Yo, thank you so much for talking with us on the show, though.
Jonell: It's my pleasure. Thank you.